This is a transcript of SYS 463 – Making Taurus (Colson Baker, Megan Fox) With Tim Sutton.
Welcome to Episode 463 of the Selling Your Screenplay Podcast. I’m Ashley Scott Meyers, screenwriter and blogger over at sellingyourscreenplay.com. Today I’m interviewing Tim Sutton who just did a rock and roll drama called Tourists starring Colson Baker, aka Machine Gun Kelly, we talk about how that movie came together for him, as well as his career and how he got his start making these moody dramas. So, stay tuned for that interview.
If you find this episode valuable, please help me out by giving me a review in iTunes or leaving a comment on YouTube or retweeting the podcast on Twitter or liking or sharing it on Facebook. These social media shares really do help spread word about the podcast. So, they’re very much appreciated. Any websites or links that I mentioned in the podcast can be found on my blog in the show notes. I also publish a transcript with every episode in case you’d rather read the show or look at something later on. You can find all the podcast show notes at www.sellingyourscreenplay.com/podcast and then just look for episode number 463. If you want my free guide How to Sell a screenplay in five weeks, you can pick that up by going to sellingyourscreenplay.com/guide. It’s completely free, you just put in your email address, and I’ll send you a new lesson once per week for five weeks along with a bunch of bonus lessons. I teach the whole process of how to sell your screenplay in that guide. I’ll teach you how to write a professional logline and query letter, and how to find agents, managers and producers who are looking for material. Really is everything you need to know to sell your screenplay, just go to sellingyourscreenplay.com/guide.
So, just a quick few words about what I’ve been working on. I’ve been talking about this NFT project with the Rideshare Killer we are finally to the point where we are launching it next week as the final episode of the year, I’m going to do a full fuller explanation about what we’ve done with this NFT project. But if you want to get a little preview, check out our website that is up and ready to go. And it’s just www.theridesharekiller.com/nfts and that’s NFTs plural. So, it’s Nancy, Frank, Tom, S, theridesharekiller.com/nfts. It definitely took more time than I would have wanted. But hopefully it’s a good marketing hook to bring some more eyeballs to The Rideshare Killer. Anyways, check out the website if you’re interested. As I said next week, I’ll have a much fuller explanation about what we’ve done and how we’re going to go about pushing this out. But the website is ready to go. So, you can check that out theridesharekiller.com/nfts. So now let’s get into the main segment. Today I’m interviewing writer director Tim Sutton, here is the interview.
Ashley
Welcome, Tim to the Selling Your Screenplay Podcast. I really appreciate you coming on the show with me today.
Tim
Glad to be here. Thanks for having me.
Ashley
So, to start out, maybe you can tell us a little bit about your background. Where do you grow up? And how did you get interested in the entertainment business?
Tim
Well, I grew up in upstate New York. But I’ve been a New Yorker, a Brooklynite for over 25 years. So, I kind of consider New York my home. And originally, I wanted to be a musicologist, actually. I was really into jazz and American roots music, and I kind of wanted to be like Alan Lomax and go around the world and record people out in the field and record music and write about music. And when in grad school, I took an ethnographic film class and got a camera in my hand. And it was all of a sudden, like the light just shining on me. And I just knew that that was my medium. After grad school, I came to New York and I became a production assistant and worked my way through the industry got to learn filmmaking from the ground up and started making short films on my own, and eventually music videos. And then eventually, I just, I had to make a feature film and went from there. But it really came from a love at first a love of music, and the stories of music and musicians. And then that turned into a love of filmmaking through the storytelling.
Ashley
Gotcha, gotcha. I just quickly, can you offer any advice to people that are getting out of college that need to get that first production assistant job? How did you get your job? And do you have any tips for young people that are looking to just get that entry level job in the business?
Tim
Yeah, I mean, listen, my mom always said network, network, network. And I was always like, oh, I don’t want to network. It’s not my style, but like, I got my first job through a family-friends, you know, who happened to be a production manager on a commercial. So, I do think you have to use all the resources that you have at your access. Other than that, you know, there’s a lot of productions in New York and a lot of production companies in New York. I’m just thinking from New York perspective, where you can get on a you can get on a feature film pretty easily as PA as long as you have a driver’s license, you know, so it’s about finding the production companies, I’m sure you can do it through the internet. But it’s about kind of going out there and saying I’ll do anything. Just get me on set. Let me drive. Let me work from the bottom up. And then when you’re there, don’t just be the PA, be the best PA in the world, you know, like really show that you can take on more responsibility. And maybe by the end of that first production, you’re actually a camera PA, and then you’re working with the camera department go out, and then maybe you’re interested in camera after that. So, it’s a way once you get in there, if you perform hard if you prefer if you perform strong. There’s a lot of opportunity right away.
Ashley
Yeah, yeah, for sure. Very sound advice. I’m curious now that you’ve had a number of years as a writer, director in the business, why are you still in New York City? Do you feel like that’s a good place to be? Is there ever been a drawl to move to Los Angeles? And I get this question all the time, just, you know, what do you recommend, especially in the day and age of Zoom, and being able to talk to people, just as we’re talking, I’m in LA, you’re in New York. Just what is your kind of current position or point of view on that? Should people move to Hollywood? Do you ever feel like you’re going to move here?
Tim
Well, I love LA, and I probably, you know, in a way would have should have moved there a little earlier. But I don’t think it’s necessary there. You know, other tourists, it’s like, I haven’t shot a movie in LA, you know that it’s not like there’s any more work going on in LA than there is in Atlanta, or in Toronto, or in Vancouver, or in New York, I think what’s important is you to live somewhere where you feel comfortable, and you can be creative. So, New York is a very expensive city, I don’t think if I were 25 years old, I don’t think I’d moved here right now, I think I’d moved to a town like Nashville, or Memphis, or New Orleans, or somewhere or something where it’s very fertile creatively, but you can afford to live. So, my filmmaker friends in Memphis, they don’t have to have three jobs or work as work in a cafe, most of the time, they can just be filmmakers, because the cost of living is not so expensive. So, to me, it’s really about where can you do your work, because you can get a camera and some smart people around you, as actors and as crew anywhere to get started, you know, to get larger productions and move on in the business, I think, yeah, you’re going to have to have a relationship with LA at some point, which is great. But do you have to live there? You know, you just need to live somewhere where you can be creative.
Ashley
Yeah, yeah. Sound Advice for sure. So, let’s just talk quickly about Pavilion, your first feature film that you wrote and directed? Just, you know, quickly, how did you get that film produced? What was sort of the, the mechanics of taking that from script to screen?
Tim
Sure. Well, you know, first of all, it was drive, like I had gotten to a point where it was like it was make a feature film, or, or you might never make one. And I really wanted to, at least make one. I had been working at Getty Images in the film department at Getty Images. And if and so I was working with, you know, small crews and real people instead of actors. And so, I just had a thought of like making a movie about teenagers, teenage lifestyle, and I wrote a short story. And I got my cinematographer of choice at the time, Chris Dawkins. And we went upstate and shot a little, a little short piece of it. And, you know, got to know the kids and got to know that the kind of story that I think I could tell with them, and how much money was going to take. And then I raised $40,000, from a couple of friends who are in finance. And also, I financed it myself. And that was the first film I made, I made it in 10 days, shot it in 10 days, and it was a very loose kind of liquid production, which is what I wanted kind of in the Gus Van Sant like less plot more atmosphere kind of style. And I got lucky. And when I cut it together with my editor, Seth Bonzi, who’s mainly a documentary editor, it ended up opening up South by Southwest that year, so I got lucky. But I also made something that was unique to me, because I didn’t want to try and make something. I didn’t want to try and make a $40,000 film that was actually trying to be a $5 million film. I just wanted to know what I could make for the, in the boundaries that I had. And I think that’s stuck with me even now that I have bigger budgets. I know, listen, $5 million dollar budget is not a $30 million budget, you have to know what you can make within your boundaries and make it the best you can.
Ashley
How did that just affect the trajectory of your career? You made Pavilion, open South by Southwest? Did you get an agent, was there enough, you know, people in the business at South by Southwest seeing the movie did you get an agent? Did you get a manager did it get you your next project, your next paid gig?
Tim
It helps me get my next film but I didn’t get an, it was still pretty marginal kind of atmosphere movie. But it did get me recognized in terms of critical acclaim. You know, it was a critics pick for the New York Times. It won a one festival in Italy, where I met the head of the Venice Film Festival who ended up finding the Venice Biennale. They ended up financing my second film in Memphis. So, it got me on the road to thinking A) I’m a filmmaker. I’m going to make another feature film, I’m doubling down. But it also got me critical success more than anything else. And critical success really helped build my reputation.
Ashley
Yeah, yeah, for sure. So, let’s dig into your latest film Tourists starring Colson Baker, aka Machine Gun Kelly, and Megan Fox. Maybe to start out you can give us a pitch or logline. What is this film all about?
Tim
Well, it’s about the tragic downfall of the rising musician. You know, someone who’s got infinite talent but is plagued by vise and doubt and insecurity. And it’s the kind of the dark underbelly of fame and fortune.
Ashley
And where did this idea come from? What was sort of the genesis of it?
Tim
Well, I mean, I’ve always been fascinated by music and musician’s lives. As I said, I was like, I thought I might be a musicologist to start out but you know, these musicians who aren’t made for the world, you know, like Felonious Monk or Amy Winehouse, these great talents who should be living long successful lives of artistry, but are broken down by fame in some way. And you know, I was 24 when Kurt Cobain died, and that left a void that that has never really been filled. And I think also like the 27 Club is a real thing, like these people, these young artists dying before they can really fulfil their promise. So, I wanted to make a movie in my language in my kind of visual cinematic language about this subject, and I wanted to do it with a real musician. And so, you know, I was lucky because Coulson, Machine Gun Kelly is a fantastic musician, and a world-famous musician, but he’s also a really fine actor. And I think people are just starting to realize that that part of it.
Ashley
Gotcha, gotcha. So, let’s dig into your writing process a little bit. Just maybe you can kind of give us an overview of it. How do you work? Do you have a home office? Do you go to Starbucks with ambient noise? Do you work in the morning? Do you work at night? What is your writing schedule look like when you’re trying to get something done?
Tim
Sure, I start with the ideas in my head, you know, for a long time. And then when I finally can do it, I write it down in an outline, I hand write an outline, that’s usually about three or four pages. And then once I have the outline, I start writing a script, I write in the mornings, I write every weekday in the mornings, for at least a couple hours. And then I edit in the afternoons or the evenings, I edit what I just wrote. So, I kind of keep going back, you know, one step forward, two steps back one, step forward, two steps back. So, when I come to the end of the first draft, it’s actually pretty polished. usually takes me about three or four weeks to get that first draft done.
Ashley
Gotcha. And then once what is your development process look like three or four weeks, you got a first draft that you’re pretty happy with, do you have some other writer friends? Do you have an agent or manager you send it? How do you get notes? How do you develop a piece of work?
Tim
Sure. Well, I have friends and that kind of trusted readers who are in the business, a couple of producer friends of mine, that I usually get quick reads from, I do have a manager who I get a quick read from as well. And you know, I’m usually right, I’m not writing necessarily with someone in mind, but I’m usually pretty quick to get that act, you know, get it in the hands of an actor as well. And I’ll synthesize all those notes. But you know, some notes I’ll agree with and some notes I won’t. But I usually try and write the next draft when I’m getting closer to actually like, Okay, we’re going to send this to these financers, so this and that. So, I’ll have that is the second draft is usually what goes out to the financers, possible financers and production companies, then I won’t do another draft until shooting, you know what I mean? Because I don’t want to take all these notes from a financer and then have them not finance the movie, so it’s important to kind of like, stay true to your script, at that point, get people involved. And then once you synthesize all the notes, from actors, from producers from the financers, then when you’re greenlit I’ve read the shooting script, and it’s usually that’s the final. That’s the final draft.
Ashley
Gotcha, gotcha. And I’m curious, because this is something that all screenwriters run into where there’s a production company or a financier that says, oh, we want these notes, but they’re not really willing to pay for the rewrites and you’re not really guaranteed of getting a green light. If you make those notes. How do you have those conversations with these financiers? Like said, Well wait and minute, I’ll make those notes. But only if you agree to finance it, how do you push back a little bit? Because oftentimes, at least to me, it’s always felt like you’re sort of expected to make these changes and pushing back sort of, you get a little snarky, like, don’t be difficult type of an attitude?
Tim
I mean, I think, you know, financers are going to want to make your movie if they want to make your movie. You know, like, if you push back, that’s the business. But what I mean, it’s pretty clear, like, if there’s some easy notes, that bill that I know will get them to go for really go forward. I’ll give them that. But mostly, I’ll just say, okay, these notes sound really good. And then I’ll have my manager and the producers go to work and say, he’ll make the changes when you put in the financing. Because it’s like, it’s ridiculous in ways for them to ask for all these things, when there’s no guarantee they’re going to be a part of it. If they give good notes that I find interesting, and I want to engage with I will, but typically, it’s just like, I’ll be very receptive of those notes and then wait for them to get the financing. And then and then I’ll incorporate the notes.
Ashley
Gotcha, gotcha. So, you mentioned Gus Van Sant and that your films are often sort of about mood and tone. And as opposed to really structured story. Talk about that a little bit. How do you approach screenplay structure with a film like this? You know, there’s obviously the Syd Field, Blake Snyder, which have very sort of delineated templates of where things should happen. But just what’s your approach? Maybe you can kind of give us some insight of your approach to screenplay structure?
Tim
Well, sure. I mean, I would say lately, you know, Tourists doesn’t have three acts, but it does, it’s a descent, you know, what I mean? So, there’s a very clear descent. But, you know, things don’t have to happen on page 30. You know, whereas in in a specific three act structure, you know, you have to have things to happen in a certain point in time, what I try and do is just build a world. And I build a world through description, through style, and through dialogue. And as long as those things are coming through the readers engaged, and if the readers engaged, they’re engaged, and that’s fantastic. It doesn’t have to go for me, it doesn’t have to go. They don’t have to be at a certain place in the in the story and be like, oh, now I know exactly what’s going to happen. I love scripts like that. And I love movies like that. It’s just not my style, when I sit down to write and what’s more important is to just build a world that immerses the reader.
Ashley
Yeah, yes. Sound Advice. For sure. Okay. So, once you had a draft of this script that you liked, what were those next steps to actually raising financing and getting this thing produced? Did you bring on some actors first, to help get financing? Or did you guys go out and try and get financing and then bring on actors, but maybe you can just walk us through some of that process?
Tim
Sure, for tourists, well, I gave the script to we to Jim Plohimis, who’s the producer, who has produced the film that I had made before with Coulson and we went to Coulson right away. And it was important to get Coulson involved in it. And he said, yes, right away. So he attached right away. So, within writing, I think I wrote it in a few weeks, I handed it to them. And we had our main actor, we had a producer and we started going out we got 10 noes and then we got a yes from review films because they were really interested in the story. The kind of a different take on a star is born and they really thought Coulson had a lot of potential. So, within three weeks after going to taking it out, we had a promise of, of a budget. So, it was a very quick process. But then the rest of the cast came in after it. This was a movie that was a it was going to live or die with Coulson, we were going to do it for a million dollars or $5 million, whatever we could do. We weren’t going to we weren’t going to bring in other people of value necessarily, because we knew we had to be the whole film just was on his shoulders. Then it gave us the freedom to cast who we want it like Maddie Hasson you know, what she taped, along with, you know, probably 50 other actors, some were much more well known, probably would have given us a little bit more cache in that world. But Maddie is just a better actor and just blew us away and is great in the role. So, not being dependent on needing value for the actors. We were able to get valuable actors, you know.
Ashley
Yeah. For sure. So, I just like to wrap up these interviews by asking the guests if there’s anything they’ve seen recently that they thought was really great. HBO, Hulu, Netflix, is there anything that you’ve seen recently that you could recommend to a screenwriting audience?
Tim
Yeah. Neon John’s Triangle of Sadness, talk about a well-structured script.
Ashley
And you broke up a little bit. What was the name of it again?
Tim
Triangle of sadness.
Ashley
Okay, perfect.
Tim
It won that Cannes Film Festival last year. It’s Neon. So, it’s in theatres right now. And it is you want to talk about a well-structured script. It’s brilliant. It’s perfectly structured. It’s hilarious. Woody Harrelson is in it. It’s as hilarious as it is smart. And very rarely is there a smart, funny movie these days.
Ashley
Yeah. Yeah, for sure. So that’s sounds like a great recommendation. I’ll have to check that out. How can people see Tourists? Do you know what the release schedule is going to be like for it?
Tim
Yeah, it’s going to be in theatres and on demand. Day, November 18th. Next week.
Ashley
November 18th. And what’s the best way for people to keep up keep up with what you’re doing? Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, anything you’re comfortable sharing.
Tim
I’m on Instagram, as VanRiperarchives is my handle, and I’m on at all the time so people can get in touch.
Ashley
Okay, perfect. Perfect. Well, Tim, I really appreciate you coming on talking with me. Good luck with this film. And good luck with all your future films as well.
Tim
Thanks, Ashley. I appreciate it.
Ashley
Thank you. We’ll talk to you later. bye.
SYS’s from concept to completion screenwriting course, is now available, just go to www.sellingyourscreenplay.com/screenwritingcourse, it will take you through every part of writing a screenplay, coming up with a concept, outlining, writing the opening pages, the first act, second act, third act and then rewriting and then there’s even a module at the end on marketing your screenplay, once it’s polished and ready to be sent out. We’re offering this course in two different versions, the first version, you get the course, plus, you get three analyses from an SYS reader, you’ll get one analysis on your outline, and then you’ll get two analyses on your first draft of your screenplay. This is just our introductory price, you’re getting three full analyses, which is actually the same price as our three-pack analysis bundle. So, you’re essentially getting the course for free when you buy the three analyses that come with it. And to be clear, you’re getting our full analysis with this package. The other version doesn’t have the analysis, so you’ll have to find some friends or colleagues who will do the feedback portion of the course with you. I’m letting SYS select members do this version of the course for free. So, if you’re a member of SY select you already have access to it. You also might consider that as an option if you join SYS select you will get the course as part of that membership too. A big piece of this course is accountability. Once you start the course, you’ll get an email every Sunday with that week’s assignment. And if you don’t complete it, we’ll follow up with another reminder the next week, it’s easy to pause the course if you need to take some time off. But as long as you’re enrolled, you’ll continue to get reminders for each section until it’s completed. The objective of the course is to get you through it in six months so that you have a completed power screenplay ready to be sent out. So, if you have an idea for a screenplay, and you’re having a hard time getting it done, this course might be exactly what you need. If this sounds like something you’d like to learn more about, just go to www.sellingyourscreenplay.com/screenwritingcourse. It’s all one word, all lowercase. I will of course a link to the course in the show notes and I will put a link to the course on the homepage up in the right-hand sidebar. On the next episode of the podcast, I’m going to be giving my fuller explanation of our NFT project that goes along with The Rideshare Killer. Again, if you want to get a little preview, just check out the website www.theridesharekiller.com/nfts. Anyways, keep an eye out for that episode next week. That’s our show. Thank you for listening.