This is a transcript of SYS 496 – Making An Audio Series With Curt Wiser .
Welcome to Episode 496 of the Selling Your Screenplay Podcast. I’m Ashley Scott Meyers, screenwriter and blogger over at sellingyourscreenplay.com. Today I am interviewing Curt Wiser, I have him back on the podcast from Episode 135. In that episode, he talked about his feature film Cam Girl and how he got his start in the business. He’s back this week to talk about his latest project of Voice in Violet, which is a dramatic podcast he wrote and directed and also edited. He and his team put together a great cast for this project, which includes Bronson Pinchot, from the 80’s sit-com, Perfect Strangers. He’s got some great tips on how this new medium works and how writers can get involved so stay tuned for that interview. If you find this episode valuable, please help me out by give me a review in iTunes or leaving a comment on YouTube or retweeting the podcast on Twitter or liking or sharing it on Facebook. These social media shares really do help spread word about the podcast, so they’re very much appreciated. Any websites or links that I mentioned in the podcast can be found on my blog in the show notes. I also publish a transcript with every episode in case you’d rather read the show or look at something later on. You can find all the podcast show notes at www.sellingyourscreenplay.com/podcasts and then just look for episode number 496. If you want my free guide How to Sell a screenplay in five weeks, you can pick that up by going to sellingyourscreenplay.com/guide. It’s completely free. You just put in your email address and I’ll send you a new lesson once per week for five weeks along with a bunch of bonus lessons. I teach the whole process of how to sell your screenplay in that guide. I’ll teach you how to write a professional logline and query letter, and how to find agents, managers and producers who are looking for material. Really is everything you need to know to sell your screenplay, just go to www.sellingyourscreenplay.com/guide.
Just a few quick words about what I’m working on. The contest closed for entries, and I’ve been working on that getting the scripts sent out to all the readers getting them evaluated, getting them pushed out to the industry judges. And of course, I’m starting to organize the film festival in October. If you did enter the film festival, we’re going to announce all the selected films by September 1st, which will hopefully give everyone plenty of time to make travel plans. Ideally, we’d really love to see all the filmmakers come and celebrate their films with us. And then we’ll of course be announcing the screenplay contest second round in early September as well. And then the actual film festival, as I said, it’s in October, it runs for that weekend, October 6th to October 8th. It’s a Friday, Saturday and Sunday. I’m still trying to get through my rewrite on my rom com. But that’s proving fairly difficult at the moment, just with everything else I have going on. So, I’ve been really kind of struggling with that. But hopefully things open up a little bit for me here with the contest in the festival, some of the other things I’m working on, I can get some more time for that. Anyways, those are the things that I’ve been working on. Now let’s get into the main segment. Today I am interviewing writer director Curt Wiser, here is the interview.
Ashley
Welcome Curt to the Selling Your Screenplay Podcast. I really appreciate you coming on the show again today.
Curt Wiser
Returning champion, second time guest, it’s surreal to be here.
Ashley
Perfect. I do appreciate it. So, I’m going to direct people back to the first episode you were on. It’s episode number 135. Where You Came on the SYS Podcast, we talked about your background in Florida and your feature film Cam Girl. So, I encourage people to go check that out. But today you’re on to talk about your new dramatic podcast series, which you wrote and directed, called A Voice in Violet. So, let’s dig into that project a little bit. Maybe to start out you can give us a quick pitch or logline. What is the pitch or logline for A Voice in Violet?
Curt Wiser
So, A Voice in Violet is an audio narrative fiction audio series. And it follows Violet, who is singer in a Hollywood club, who lives a murderous double life when the people who have wronged her coming to visit her from her past.
Ashley
Okay, and so where did this idea come from? What was sort of the genesis of this story?
Curt Wiser
To be honest, the origin of it was, it was in the middle of a pandemic 2021, I decided I would just produce my own web series. So totally different projects called Leave Quietly. And it was kind of inspired by a series called Calls. And it was very, it has visuals that Calls does and Leave Quietly too but it’s very audio driven, dialogue driven. I was like I could produce something like this. And that could be my first sag project, you know, first official sag project with sag actors. So, I went into to that and produce that the people among the great cast that have a cast and that was Brooklyn Lewis Bellas. She enjoyed working with me on that project and like my writing and she’s a producer herself. So, she almost surely after production of that wrap she approached me to, if I’d be interested in writing, directing, editing an audio series, and it was pitched as kind of a starring vehicle for her. And those were kind of the parameters like I initially and then I asked what kind of part parts would you be interested in? And one of the things she told me that really clicked, she wanted to be a Norman Desmond type character. And that was like, oh, okay, I’ve got it. I can do like a kind of dark film noir, or, you know, starlet, and then I gave her several pitches. And one of them was A Voice in Violet. And I’m so glad that she picked that one out of the bunch, because it just felt so right to be told in this medium, to be told as an audio drama.
Ashley
Gotcha, gotcha. So just give me a little bit of background. Like, where did it like, where did you even get the idea that this, you know, a fictional podcast was even a thing? Was this something you were listening to? Had you listened to some other? And you thought this was a good medium? What was sort of that? And again, as someone who comes more from, you know, the audio and visual background? How do you see this fitting into your own career? Like, why go down this alley? What was sort of enticing to you to do just an audio series?
Curt Wiser
It’s a great question. In truth, I was a longtime listener, a podcast, but nonfiction. Before this, all nonfiction I’ve listened to, I was certainly aware of fiction, podcasting, and audio series. But I didn’t really listen to them in earnest, you know, until this project came my way and I dove in headfirst when that happened. And then in doing so it just confirmed; oh, this is very interesting medium. It’s worth noting that I did like, all my audio posts on like the feature. So, I worked very heavily and fully effects prior to that, and that certainly helped leverage, you know, all the confidence I had into writing, directing, editing, and doing the Foley for a future length audio series. So that’s pretty much how it led, you know, I didn’t until I got the gig, but then really did research and listen to as many of these things as I could and some great ones.
Ashley
Yeah, and one of the things that just always occurred to me when I started to hear about this, you know, fictional dramatic podcast series, you just mentioned a web series, like even a simple web series is quite difficult to produce, because you’ve got cameras and lighting and sets and this sort of stuff. So just the frugal practical side of myself, this seems like a great medium for writers, because it’s so much easier and cheaper to just get to ship a product out to the public. Did that play into any of your sort of thinking here is that there is some just some practical elements that can help you just create stuff.
Curt Wiser
It definitely played into it, I’m sure I mean, I can’t speak for Brooke Lewis Bella’s decision was to produce the audio series. But I do know just in general, a big reason why it was exploded, this medium exploded, like, especially during the pandemic is for that very reason. I mean, we’ve got a-list actors, Demi Moore starred in one called Dirty Diana. Laurence Fishburne has starred in one. Rami Malek, Brad Pitt’s about to, like, I mean, it is actually insane what’s going on. And I have to believe a big part of it is because of the ease of production, because at that time, of course, it was much easier for social distancing concerns, you know, when they were at their peak, during the pandemic, to produce something as an audio series. And then as far as the medium, I think it was in great challenges. But at the same time, I embraced them. I think this is such, it felt like an opportunity to tell a story from beginning to end in this medium in this new way. It’s kind of funny, because I’m such a visual person, like in my storytelling and everything. And in life, like, I like I don’t know, street signs when I drive, it’s all landmarks and stuff. But so, it was just very interesting to try to tell something in that medium. Like, for instance, it was we all know the adage, ‘show, don’t tell’, right. When you’re writing screenplays, I quickly learned for this, it’s ‘here don’t tell’. So, I mean, we can explore that if you want is so because you don’t have the luxury or in this case, a crutch of visuals. So, it’s like how can you convey exhibition and plot points.
Ashley
Yeah, yeah. And let’s get into that in a second. Just a couple quick questions on some of what you’re saying there. You were about to mention some of these series. So maybe for our audience, you can just tell us like, what were some of the series that you think are really good that if someone wants to get into this, you can recommend yeah, go check out this. You mentioned one with I think Demi Moore, you just said, but maybe you can just list off rattle off a couple of these series our audience can find them and listen to them.
Curt Wiser
Absolutely, just to name a few. And again, this is trying to like, get a different range of different stories. Because you know, there’s so many different you can tell any type of story in this medium, just like you know, with film Impact Winner. There’s another one called Mother Hacker, there’s really important to note very current is the Horror of Delores Roach, because that’s an amazing fiction podcast that is now released that it was adapted into a streaming series that’s on Amazon. And it was produced by Blumhouse, the adaptation. So, I recommend both. Check out the podcast and the streaming series of that. American Hostage was amazing. I felt that that was just part of my true events. That’s like based on a true story. How to Win Friends and Disappear People, Listening in, The White Vault, Hothouse Bruiser, which I thought was interesting, because it’s a film that one’s a film noir, and it uses like the narrative, you know, like an old film noir detective, you know. But it’s also like a sci-fi twist to that one Hothouse Bruiser, and then also Unwanted. Unwanted was very unique, because it’s like a buddy comedy action series, but all culture audio.
Ashley
Now, and just growing up, you know, we always hear about that was this moment in time in the in the 20th century, before television was invented after radio, were these radio shows. And I think my dad listened to these and they were talking about, you know, Flash Gordon and the heart. It was a real classic sort of shows. And I would hear about these things. I don’t know that I ever actually heard one. But did you look into any of those? Because it seems to me that will be pretty fertile ground. These were people that were creating audio, you know, fictional Audio Stories?
Curt Wiser
Well, since you bring that up, then I for sure the one I did listen to before this was War of the Worlds famously the Orson Welles. Did the one that actually caused the panic in the streets because people thought aliens were actually invading. So, I mean, that was a different time, you know, literally than now, but I mean, that that does tell you the power of the medium is that people believe that that was really happening.
Ashley
Yeah, yeah. So, let’s dig into your writing process a little bit specifically on this. So, you did six episodes for this series? How long is each episode? And then really what I’m getting, like, how much writing is there for something like this? How many pages? How does it actually break down in a screenplay?
Curt Wiser
Or I’ll give the answer for this particular project. And then in general, for A Voice in Violet, the total runtime approximately of each episode is like 13 minutes, give or take a minute, you know, here or there. And then it can range in general, like, I mean, it could be 40 minutes per episode, you know, and it can have 12-part season.
Ashley
13 times six, you’re approaching like a feature film, like a whatever, 70 whatever the math is on that, 80-minutes or something. So, it’s just about a feature film that’s broken up into six episodes. Was that sort of how you describe it?
Curt Wiser
Exactly. I came in at like 78 minutes.
Ashley
And then how are scripts laid out? Do you use Final Draft? You type them just normally, like a normal screenplay would be? Or just how did you actually write these create these and type these out and get them ready for production?
Curt Wiser
Good question. That was actually one of the first you know, things I was like, wait a minute, how do you write one of these. And the current answer that I can give your listeners is and I can thank Brooke Lewis Bella’s, she sent me an article that showed examples of the different formats because the answer is currently there’s not like that’s how new this is. Like it’s not like a screenplay where if you submit a screenplay to somebody in a totally different format to be like, what is this? With this you can do various different formats. You can do like a play script style format, you can format it like a screenplay. That’s perfectly acceptable or you can do kind of like another example I saw was a very bare bones one where it’s all just like left justified, and like very, very limited formatting changes. And so, I mean, what we went with, I believe it was it was closer to the play script format. So that’s what was submitted. I mean…
Ashley
So, once you’re in the screenplay, typing it out, like, how is it laid out with description? And I mean, is there a narrator? I mean, there wouldn’t be like in a typical screenplay, the description is what you’re seeing on the screen, I guess you might have some description like, you know, there’s a gun shot off screen or something like that. But is there a description that goes along this? Is there a narrator that sort of gives the audience clues the audience in into some of these visual things that are not necessarily captured with the audio?
Curt Wiser
Well, for the narrator question that depends on, you know, the writer and production team, you know, what they decide? I’ve heard plenty that, that take both, some that have a narrator and others that don’t, that feel more like you’re just listening to a movie in that sense, that answers to that one. And then as far as action lines, the way those are usually approached that I saw and the way we did it on this project, is there audio descriptions. So, you have action lines the same way you would, you know, like in a screenplay, but you’re describing what you hear, you try to think about it from the sense of the soundscape of the story you’re telling.
Ashley
So, just any tips for writing using audio? And just I mean, I’m asking like, how do you differentiate when a scene ends? Is there’s some sound cue? And then how, like, how do you establish if you’re not using a narrator, how do you establish location? I mean, I guess you could for a beach scene, you could have waves and birds and stuff, but like, what is that will actually look like on the page when you’re writing this? How do you denote the end of a scene? How do you denote the location without a narrator?
Curt Wiser
That very much comes in to the soundscape and it might not necessarily be something you write at the top, you know, below the, that’s the other thing, the action lines, the snug lines are very brief, you know, so because obviously, you don’t need interior exterior Night Day, because we’re not seeing any of it. So, you don’t need those kinds of like, classic filmmaking. production needs, it’s so it’ll just say the driftwood, like a lot of our stuff was set at the Hollywood club, the driftwood, so it just does the driftwood. And then below that, it might describe, you know, it before, you know, so and so walks in while they’re getting ready for the nights business, you know, so before they’re open, so, you know. Or, you know, the bustling of all the patrons inside, the driftwood are heard as, as so and so walks in. So, I mean, so it comes from that, it basically is done a lot of times in post and editing, but that’s very important is also tried to make sure either it’s through dialogue, that it’s clear where you are, like, don’t take it for granted that oh, the audio will tell for sure where they are, you don’t want people to get lost with location or point of view, anything like that.
Ashley
Gotcha. So, as we were chatting before the interview, you mentioned that a lot of this story revolves around a lounge singer. And maybe you can speak to that a little bit. But one thing that just occurs to me is, you know, you have an audio story. So having a story that you know, has singing and music and that sort of stuff seems well suited. Was that part of your strategy? And maybe you can speak to that a little bit. Just working with that music team and incorporating that stuff into the story.
Curt Wiser
Absolutely, that was one of the main things that made this project feel unique. Because I like I said, I’ve recently listened to a lot of these and I haven’t heard one that takes this approach, you know, telling the story of a lounge singer that looks like a double life that’s intriguing and thrilling, and mysterious. So that definitely played into it. And because of that the music was crucial. Like I think it’s always important, but it was like especially crucial because I mean it’d be like having a boxing movie without very good boxing in it. So, I’d have to thank our composer who was Michael Trap and our singer and who also provided music, you know, original music before … it is her original music is Fawn. Is her artists name. So, like Fawn’s music became like when Violet singing on stage. Because that was very important that we needed to show them that side of it because that’s her life, you know, and it also reflects her goals and her passion and everything so that had to be representatives.
Ashley
Gotcha. Is your producer/actress who you’re working with on this, did she come to you saying I can sing was that part of it, that was part of her skill set? Or no you’re using the other songs that people had?
Curt Wiser
That actually wasn’t discussed initially. But it is kind of a fun fact that she does sing. And she did, we actually use a song that she sings, you know, just to kind of like as it’s like something that’s played in the scene, like on somebody’s cell phone, which is getting me off your mind. So, she’s actually the singer Brooke Lewis Bellas is the singer in that one, but that wasn’t discussed beforehand. But it was decided during production, and confirmed in post that we were going to do it this way we’re, that we do want to have, we do want to portray Violet singing on stage. And we can do it through using Fawns incredible music.
Ashley
So, this next question, again, I’m just trying to kind of Is there anything? You know, are there any things that I should be asking you? And I’m not since I’m not something I’ve really done in terms of writing a fictional podcast, but were there some things going into this, that you thought were going to be really easy, but they turned out to be hard. And then the opposite question is, were there some things you thought were going to be hard, that turned out to be easy, and I’m just sort of, you know, I’d like now that you’ve been through this process, you have some experience. And for the rest of us that don’t, maybe there’s sort of some things you can warn us about things that you went in there thinking; oh, this is going to be easy, but that just didn’t turn out to be quite as easy as you thought. And then the opposite, where there’s some things that maybe you could have leaned on a little harder, but you didn’t because you thought they were going to be difficult?
Curt Wiser
Like, I knew from the beginning, that a challenge is to just like, on screen, so much of it comes to the actors, you know, so much of it falls on the actors, it has to be believable, right? So, in a lot of these, the ones that really stand out a lot of audio series that are incredible, you really feel like you’re there, you know, and that’s the other thing, it’s kind of immersive, and uses your creativity, because you don’t have the visuals. So, if it ever feels like it’s just an actor performing in a booth, then you lose all that. And it kind of just sticks out like a sore thumb. Because you don’t have the visuals, you know, people aren’t distracted by an explosion or set pieces or, you know, so that was very crucial early on, I made sure okay, how can I, as the director and writer of this, make sure that it doesn’t ever feel like that, you know, think we’ve had an amazing cast. So, it starts with that, but how can we help make sure that it feels genuine. And one of the things I did is when we had a locked screenplay for this, I went through and found ways that the sound design, sound effects could interact with a dialogue. For instance, there’s a scene where Violent hugs another character said, okay, the last little bit where she’s saying this dialogue that can be made in brace so and so of course, when you do that, it constricts your chest, and you know, changes the tenor of your voice. So, the actors did an incredible job embracing that, that kind of direction. And I really think, knowing that from the beginning, and you know, earmarking parts of the script that would do that goes a long way. And then as far as what turned out to be easy, was like the full effects. Because that’s so important, but I actually love it. Like I found a new passion for it, like, more than ever before. I use some of the library I already had for previous work, but I recorded so much, so much also originally, for this series. And that felt so easy and wonderful. I thought it might have been a challenge. Like, make these feel really great. You need a really dynamic soundscape.
Ashley
Gotcha, gotcha. So, you mentioned the cast, and the great actors you have, maybe we can touch about that a little bit. How did you assemble this cast of actors? You have Bronson Pinchot, who is from Perfect Strangers, the TV show in the 80s. Maybe you can just round that up. How did you bring these actors on board? What is the carrot for them? How do you entice actors that are used to doing you know movies or TV shows? How do you entice them to come and do a podcast?
Curt Wiser
All compliments to the casting go to our producer Brooke Lewis Bellas. So, I believe she worked with a casting director as well. That would be a question for her though. Yeah, it’s like, I’d have to imagine that first starts with the writing. You know, I’m so grateful that they said yes, you know, she could have easily, you know, approach them, you know, through her networks, and they, you know, this isn’t for me, you know. So that’s the first step is have a great project that people want to be part of. And then yeah, it find different connections a bit. If it’s all sag, then that, of course brings you to a different level. And you can approach actors of a different caliber, a different level their career, and having a casting director, I’m sure can’t hurt if you were able to pursue that that way. Also, among the cast is Nikki Blonsky, Eric Etebari, Nelson Lee and Wilson Jermaine Heredia. I was just so thrilled to work with this incredible cast.
Ashley
Well, let’s talk about just the technical chops. I mean, obviously, you have a background in this, you know, a lot of just technical things in terms of editing and shooting and that stuff. But what would you say are the necessary technical chops that ones need? And then the second part of that is, you know, what is the hardware and software that one needs, but let’s just talk about the technical chops. Obviously, you have editing skills, that’s pretty important for something like this, but what do you need? What would you recommend if there’s a writer out there listening to this and they’re thinking about going and trying to create this, what do they need to know? Technically, maybe they need to find someone that has some technical skills that you have, but maybe they don’t have, but what do you see just technically, what do you need in your team?
Curt Wiser
Okay, so assuming it’s going to be more of an indie space, because there it’s worth noting that there’s major studios that produces stuff now like cue code and realm and gimlet, but assuming your listeners, you know, they’re going to kind of do this more independent vibe, you’re going to want to either be have somebody immediately your team or find somebody who has those kinds of resources, like a really top quality microphone. If not, then access to a great sound booth, you know, a great place that has access to a sound booth, and recording. You know, you need your recording software, you need a great quality microphone. If you’re also doing the fully yourself, you need, you know, quality field recorder and quality, you know, mic and boom. So, that’s the bare minimum. You want to start with that.
Ashley
Yeah. And now, you and I are both familiar. In fact, you were in the movie and part of it, Christmas staycation was one that we showed at the film festival last year. And I’m curious, because my recollection on that one was that they actually recorded some of their audio through Zoom. And you would say that’s not going to cut it just as a professional, you know, editor, sound guy, foley guy, you would want something higher quality, someone shouldn’t be just recording this on Zoom, the quality is not going to be as high as what you might want.
Curt Wiser
I wouldn’t recommend that. I mean, I never deterred anybody from doing it that way. You know, is it a project where it’s supposed to take place over Zoom? You know, is that the conceit of the narrative guy? If so, then maybe but he’s totally in post as we all know, you can easily post have full control over making it sound like it’s, you know, recorded over Zoom or use filters at sounding it from a cell phone speaker, etc.
Ashley
Yeah, yeah. So, okay, so can you get kind of specific, do you have a specific recorder that you could recommend? What editing software do you use? Is there one that’s geared more towards editing just audio versus whatever the Premiere, what’s the Blackmagic one? DaVinci these are all you can do audio in them but they also are obviously built in very robust for the video element. Was there some software you used?
Curt Wiser
For the ones I know I can certain say the truth on this? I don’t want to give any inaccurate is I know the Foley. I used a Zoom recorder. I highly recommend that it’s an incredible field recorder. I used a Rode portable microphone. That’s perfect for that reasons for like, I know I believe we had, like a top Elda dialogue was a different type of setup. Of course. That’s like a top-quality microphone like an Audio Technica, a brand like that is what you’d want to go for dialogue. I highly recommend that. And then premiere we used all, I did all the editing and audio post in the premier suite. I highly recommend you no but I mean, you can like you said you can be whatever you’re comfortable with. I’m really, I mean, most of these software, give me the same kind of capabilities and latitudes.
Ashley
So, how can people listen to A Voice in Violet? How are you guys going to release it? And how can people find it?
Curt Wiser
Thanks to Philly chick pictures and Brooke Lewis Bellas it is available on all major podcast platforms like Spotify, Apple podcast, audible. You name it, so it is on all of them.
Ashley
Gotcha. Do you see, and I wonder, just as the writer director, maybe you didn’t get into this. But is there any money to be made for these things? Like, how are these things ultimately monetize? If you put a podcast on iTunes? Like the selling your screenplay Podcast? I’m putting it on there for free, but I’m advertising my services in it. How would one monetize a fictional podcast like this?
Curt Wiser
I would say one, there’s several different ways that it can be monetized. One way for sure, is the model like of the studio is emulated and others like they would try to make stuff, it’s a proof of concept to get picked up to be made into a streaming series. So that’s an amazing way to monetize a property like this. But that’s, you know, a long shot. Another way would be to have a sponsor, you know, just like how other how nonfiction podcasts have advertisements or a sponsor at the beginning or end, you could do it in a fiction narrative space, but it’s not done that frequently, not nearly as much as nonfiction. So those are the two main ways that I can say.
Ashley
It’s still an evolving field. So maybe there’ll be some that have subscriptions and that sort of stuff.
Curt Wiser
There’s that. Yeah, there is a subscription model. You like the big ones, Q code in them, they also have subscription to their content, but they also release, but pretty much all of them they release to the public, few weeks behind, so you get early access to subscribers get early access. I’m glad you brought that up. So that that is another way. Yeah. So but eventually, all the stuff gets released to the public. You know, but I have a sell subscription for early access.
Ashley
Gotcha. Gotcha. So, what’s the best way for people to keep up with what you’re doing? Obviously, we’ll put your IMDb page in the show notes, but Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, anything you’re comfortable sharing, we will round up and put in the show notes.
Curt Wiser
I’m on some of the socials on Twitter I’m on camera_movie, on Facebook I’m Curt.Wiser.5, on Instagram is just my name Curt Wiser. I’d also like to I’ve recently started because I love this work in this medium so much and felt like I learned so much and wanted to share it. I actually started a blog called the Audio Files. And it deals with that it deals with how to write direct and edit an audio series.
Ashley
Okay, perfect. Yeah, we’ll put that in the show notes for sure, then people can click over and check that out. So, well Curt, I really appreciate you coming on and talking with me today. Good luck with this project. And hopefully we’ll have you on again for a third time when you get another project finished.
Curt Wiser
Thank you so much, Ashley.
Ashley
Thank you.
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So, if you want a professional evaluation of your screenplay at a very reasonable price, check out www.sellingyourscreenplay.com/consultants. Again, that’s sellingyourscreenplay.com/consultants. On the next episode of the podcast, I’m going to be interviewing David Healing. And it’s a real success story, he wrote and directed a low budget faith-based feature film called His Only Son. Next week, he comes on the show to talk us through this project, how he wrote it, how he raised the money for it, and how he got it produced. I’ve talked about faith-based niche before on the podcast. It’s not a niche that I follow or know much about. But I do know that it’s very underserved in terms of screenwriters. So as a writer, if it’s something that’s interesting to you, it’s definitely something you should learn more about, understand and potentially maybe even write in this niche. Again, it just goes back to that sort of idea where so many people you know, and I include myself in this, we’re not particularly spiritual or religious. And I think that is even sort of an offshoot of why we become screenwriters and are interested in something like this. So, as I said, I don’t have really a background. It’s not these are not films that I watch. But because there’s not as many screenwriters competing, writing these types of scripts, therefore competing for these production slots, there’s quite a bit of opportunity there. Again, and I’ve had, you know, faith-based screenwriters on before, and the one thing that I’m always very impressed by is just how serious they take their spirituality and their face. So, this is not in any way, me telling people to get into this niche, just because there’s dollar signs just because it might be easier to sell a script. But what I am saying is, is that I think it could be a great niche for people that are already into religion and faith and are very spiritual people, this might be a good fit for you. Because as I said, there’s a lot more opportunity compared to other genres, other niches, and the number of screenwriters that are writing in this. And these films often do very, very well as this one, his only son is really doing very, very well, especially for a low budget film. It’s going to do some really good some good numbers. So again, there’s going to be producers looking to do these movies if you’re into, you know, faith-based films, this is definitely a podcast episode you’re not going to want to miss so keep an eye out for that episode next week. That’s the show. Thank you for listening.