This is a transcript of SYS 522 – Writing An Action Thriller Starring Milla Jovovich With Doug Simon.
Welcome to Episode 522 of the Selling Your Screenplay Podcast. I’m Ashley Scott Meyers, screenwriter and blogger but sellingyourscreenplay.com. Today I am interviewing screenwriter Doug Simon. He just wrote a sci-fi thriller feature film called Breathe, starring Jennifer Hudson and Mila Jovovich. So, we talk about his career, we will walk through this film how it all came together for him. But I’m also trying something a little new with this interview, we dig into the actual screenplay and film, I watched the film and came up with a bunch of questions about some of the dramatic choices that he made while writing the script. So, we do a pretty deep dive into this actual film, Breathe, there will be some spoilers in the interview. So, if you’re worried about that, definitely go check out the film first, and then come back and listen to the interview. But my guess is if you listen to the interview first, it’ll actually just make you want to watch the movie more. So just so you can kind of see what we’re talking about. But there will be some spoilers we definitely get into the plot and the story and the characters and all of that. So, stay tuned for that interview.
SYS’s a six-figure screenplay contest is open for submissions just go to www.sellingyourscreenplay.com/contest. Our regular deadline is May 31. So, if your script is ready, definitely submit now to save some money. We’re looking for low budget shorts and features I’m defining low budget as less than six figures. In other words, less than 1 million US dollars. We have a video on the landing page, you can check that out sellingyourscreenplay.com/contest. There’s a video at the bottom, which kind of gives you an overview of how you can estimate the budget of your film if you’re worried could my film be produced for a million dollars. We have a short film script category as well, 30 pages or less. So, if you have a low budget short script, by all means, submit that. Some of our industry judges are specifically looking for short scripts, so hopefully we can find a home for those projects. If you want to submit to the contest or learn more about it, you want to see who some of our judges are, they’re all listed on the contest page, just go to www.sellingyourscreenplay.com/contest. And also again this year we are running an in person Film Festival in tandem with our screenplay contest. It’s for low budget films produced for less than 1 million US dollars. Again, we have a features and shorts category. The festival is going to take place here in Los Angeles, California from October 4th to October 6th. If you have produced a short film or a feature film and or know someone who has, by all means, point them in our direction. If you have a finished film and would like to submit or learn more about it, you can go to www.sellingyourscreenplay.com/festival and that will push you over to our FilmFreeWay page where you can make your actual submission for the film festival. If you find this episode valuable, please help me out by giving me a review in iTunes or leaving a comment on YouTube or retweeting the podcast on Twitter or liking or sharing it on Facebook. These social media shares really do help spread word about the podcast, so they’re very much appreciated. Any websites or links that I mentioned in the podcast can be found on my blog in the show notes. I also publish a transcript with every episode in case you’d rather read the show or look at something later on. You can find all the podcast show notes at www.sellingyourscreenplay.com/podcast and then just look for episode 522. If you want my free guide How to Sell a Screenplay in five weeks, you can pick that up by going to www.sellingyourscreenplay.com/guide. It’s completely free. Just put in your email address and I’ll send you a new lesson once per week for five weeks along with a bunch of bonus lessons. I teach the whole process of how to sell your screenplay in that guide. I’ll teach you how to write a professional logline and query letter and how to find agents, managers and producers who are looking for material really is everything you need to know to sell your screenplay once again just go to www.sellingyourscreenplay.com/guide. So, now let’s get into the main segment. Today I’m interviewing screenwriter Doug Simon. I hope you enjoy this extended interview. Here it is.
Ashley
Welcome Doug to the Selling Your Screenplay Podcast. I really appreciate you coming on the show with me today.
Doug Simon
Thanks for having me.
Ashley
So, to start out maybe can tell us a little bit about your background. Where do you grew up? And how did you get interested in the entertainment business?
Doug Simon
I grew up in New York Long Island, specifically. And I like a lot of I guess kids just grew up loving movies, loving stories, love being taken on a journey with lots of twists and turns. And when it’s time to go to college, I went to Hofstra University for two years, actually, on Long Island, commuted there and transferred to NYU, my junior year and went to NYU film school and did a bunch of short films there. And while I was at NYU, I met this Director Will Canon who is a great director and also one of my best friends and we start to write together. This is maybe like, early 2000s. And around the same time, as we started to write together, we moved out to LA. And a bunch of our friends from NYU also moved out to LA, and got odd jobs. But while we were doing those odd jobs, we continue to write and write and write, and eventually wrote this movie called Brotherhood, about a fraternity initiation that goes wrong. And we co-wrote it, well directed it. And it went to South by Southwest in 2010, and won the Audience Award there. And continued to write with Will, but eventually, and again, we remain best friends to this day. But eventually, I tried to write stuff on my own. And I wrote this murder mystery, called Burn site that made it on to the blacklist, the year I wrote it. And that was kind of the first thing I did on my own writing wise, and got some fans from that script. And kind of from there on, continued to write. On my own, and yeah, eventually worked my way to breathe. I’m skipping several years here, but and 2019 wrote, Breathe, and also made it on the blacklist that year.
Ashley
Breathe made it on the blacklist. So, maybe you can talk a little bit about that, having scripts on the blacklist how many doors did that open? And just the greater question, I’m here at selling your screenplay, we sell services to screenwriters, there’s a number of other services out there, Inc. Tip. There’s a bunch of contests. Maybe you could just talk to that, as someone who’s been in the trenches here, the last decade of all these services, what which ones do you see a lot of value? Which one do you recommend? And how much did the blacklist actually help you move to that next level?
Doug Simon
Well, it was helpful in the sense you, it’s nice to say that, you know, you made it on this list, and that executives around town, are saying this work is something that we’d like, you know, and I think on the list, they say this isn’t like, a best of, this is just what people liked the most that year that it came out. Or the year that this the list comes out. And yeah, it was helpful. It opens doors and like you said, it’s this. I don’t know the best way to describe it. But it’s something that I think it’s a shorthand for, okay. This person may have some writing chops, I’ll say.
Ashley
Are there any other services that you were trying out as well as the blacklist during this period?
Doug Simon
Well, you know, I haven’t used that service. What happened was, because I was my agents and managers, they sent out the script on affiliated with the blacklist. And so, it didn’t go through their website. This was just their annual end of your list.
Ashley
Yeah. Gotcha. Gotcha. Cool. So, were you trying other things or at this point, you had an agent, a manager, so you were going that route?
Doug Simon
Yeah, so had an agent and manager. And yet, whenever it’s time to send out a script, it goes through them, they do their thing.
Ashley
So, let’s dig into Breathe a little bit starring Mila Jovovich. Maybe you start out you can give us a quick pitch or logline. What is sort of the premise of this film.
Doug Simon
I guess, after some sort of unspecified environmental disaster, the planet is left uninhabitable due to the lack of breathable air, and most of the population has fallen away. Except for this mother and daughter who are managing to survive and stay alive in this specialized shelter that was built by her husband, who has since gone missing. And this mother and daughter have this tense relationship, but they’re getting by until two strangers show up at their door, or running out of oxygen. Wearing oxygen tanks, begging to be led in and claiming to know her husband, the one who built this shelter. And from there on it becomes this fight for survival. And do we trust these people? Do we not trust these people?
Ashley
Yeah, yeah. So, I think that’s a great summation. And I just want to warn people, I watched the movie yesterday. So, I’m going to dig into some very specific questions here. So, if you’re really worried, there will be some spoilers in this interview. So, if you’re really if you’re listening to this, and you’re really worried about this, definitely go check out the movie before you listen to the rest of this. And maybe we can get that off the top as well. Do you know when this film is going to be released and where it will be available? We’re recording this in the middle of April, but this episode will be released in early May. So hopefully, the film will be out probably by then.
Doug Simon
It’s coming out April 26th. Limited release in theaters, and also VOD at the same time.
Ashley
Okay, perfect. So yeah, people will be able to find that as this releases. So, I guess the first question is, where did this idea come from? What was sort of the genesis of this idea?
Doug Simon
Well, a lot of the things I had written up until this point had been like, crime thrillers and murder mysteries. And a friend of mine, who I always give my work to. said, well, at that time, I think I was thinking about writing another crime thriller. And he said to me, you know, maybe try writing something in a different genre. Take what you like about a crime thriller, and put it inside another genre, mash it up a little bit. And I thought, that’s a good idea. So, I went back and looked at my notes of ideas. And there was this idea for Breath. And at that time, a home invasion movie. And at that time, it was just this kernel of an idea or this world about a planet without breathable air. And you can only go outside if you had a kind of a makeshift spacesuit on, and that this family lives in a shelter that they built, and then two people show up one to get inside. And that was, what was there. And I thought, okay, like, I could work with this. I think there’s something interesting here. But it really didn’t start to take shape until I really dug into the characters. Really, Jennifer’s character and Yvonne Jays character, the mother and daughter and focused on their relationship and how they have this tense existence together. And thought, okay, that’s a good thread, that’s something I can like, hold on to and anchor this story inside this genre inside this kind of home invasion movies.
Ashley
Walk us through, like, walk us through that thought process. I mean, why a mother daughter? Why not two brothers? Or why not a husband and a wife? Or, you know, why could there could be any combination of two people in there? What was it about this story that you decided a mother and daughter was probably the best to sort of dramatize it?
Doug Simon
Well, I have three daughters. So, I really wanted it to be a daughter. And for some reason, I wish I could say specifically, like, I had a great reason why it wasn’t a father that I chose. Having it be a mother just felt right. And I kind of went on instinct there. I didn’t have any. Like, oh, as far as like, I don’t know, craft wise or fun. Like I didn’t I didn’t like have like this great like idea why it had to be a mother.
Ashley
Yeah, no, sometimes it is just pure intuition. But what why a black family in Brooklyn. I mean, one of the things that occurred to me as I just started watching this, certainly from like a production value, or for bringing production cost down, not doing it in Brooklyn seems like it would have been a better choice just in terms of budget. But maybe you can speak to that a little. I mean, I looked at the directors bio looked like he was from Brooklyn. So, I thought maybe there was something there where he just had sort of a, you know, a familiarity with the area and that was paid into it. But maybe you can speak to that a little bit. Why a post-apocalyptic you know, Thriller like this in Brooklyn, why not a bunker out in rural, the rural part of the world or just anything like that?
Doug Simon
Well, it’s interesting you mentioned that because the original when I wrote the spec, the spec went out it took place in originally upstate New York and more of a rural setting. And I didn’t specify the race or ethnicity or anything of the family. When you on the road, one on the search for a director. And Stefan raised his hand, he had a really interesting, great thoughts on what he would do with the script if he were to direct it. And one of those things was moving it from upstate New York to East Flatbush, Brooklyn and for it to be about a black guy and his family. And he wanted to bring his point of view to the script. And so, when they Thunder Road, heard the take liked it and thought, this is great. Stefan’s amazing director and thought he had great thoughts on what to do with it. Then they set me and Stefan to working together on a rewrite. And or I should say, Stefan, they connected Stefan and myself. And Stefan said, this is what I’m thinking about doing. And you know, if you’re on board, like what do you think? And I thought, you know, let’s do it if it if you’re up for it, I’m up for and that was the big transition from upstate New York to East Flatbush, or the reason for it, I should say.
Ashley
Gotcha. So, what’s your take on structure? There’s a lot of screenwriters that I talked to have a more intuitive approach. And then there’s also sort of the very delineated approaches of a Blake Snyder or Syd Field with your act breaks and, and turning points in all of this. What is your take on structure? And can you speak to that a little bit, just, you know, in the context of Breath?
Doug Simon
Typically writing a three act structure. But the books that I really, really like or books that helped me learn about screenwriting, are William Goldman’s adventure in the screen trade, and Robert McKee story. And Robert McKee, the story book is a pretty dense read. And so, I don’t really the Save the cat, like, I know, a lot of people use it, and I’ve heard a lot of people talk to me about it, and like, you know, but I guess those are the two books that are that I really like, go to if I’m in trouble, I’ll go okay. Let me just look at this. And let me read Coleman’s passage on the spine of a story. But, yeah, I usually follow the three-act structure of a screenplay.
Ashley
Let’s talk about your teaser a little bit. As you opened, the actor Common, the father played by Common and you start out with his point of view me again, maybe you can speak to that. And then he left at page 12. Watching the movie, it felt like he was going to be the protagonist with those first 12 pages. Maybe you can speak to that a little bit. Number one, what’s sort of the purpose just in general, the teaser? And then how did you approach your teaser?
Doug Simon
I think the idea is really setting up the danger of this world. And that one little misstep can lead to death. Yeah, also, Common’s character Darius shows also that he was a bit of the glue in this family that kept Maya and Zoya kind of living peacefully. And then once that person is gone, once the referee is gone, it can get a little complicated, or the tensions increase.
Ashley
So, just a couple of just random questions, things I noticed. One of the ways you gave some exposition was you guys had an NBA 2035 Championship sign at one point they go in the store, I noticed that one of the characters was wearing a real beat up Philadelphia Phillies jersey. Was those things that were written into the script. Are you a basketball fan, was that came things. What about those details? I’m just always curious where those real specific details come.
Doug Simon
I forget. I mean, that was definitely from me and Stefan working on it together. The Knicks championship banner, that was definitely something that Stefan thought would be fun to get in there. Also, that the Knicks finally win a championship and then the world goes to hell. And then I think you’re talking about Sam Worthington’s character Lucas wearing Philly Jersey, and it has his last name on it. So, I think you’re supposed to assume he was a basketball fan and got his own name, last name, but on the back of it.
Ashley
Gotcha. Now what about some of the X position in your opening, I would say two or three minutes, you have some cards that come on and say stuff like oxygen levels, uninhabitable, plant life non-existent. Maybe you can speak to that in terms of just exposition, getting exposition out there. Why did you guys make that choice early on, I felt like a lot of the exposition came later when she had her voice over the daughter sort of started speaking into the radio and giving some of that stuff there. But maybe you can speak to that a little bit, just, you know, getting some of this exposition because the world building in something like this is so important. And you do need to relay a lot of information, typically to the audience quickly and as you know, in organic way as possible.
Doug Simon
The title cards that you’re talking about, that was something that Stefan and the editor added. That wasn’t in the original script. So, I think clearly, they felt after screening, we need a little bit extra out front, so that the audience understands a little bit more. And a lot of the exposition in the original script really didn’t come from Zora’s voiceover. And that was really the first you kind of heard about what happened or suggestions about what happened, even though we don’t really specify what exactly happened that has left the world uninhabitable did a lack of breathable air.
Ashley
And why not specify, why leave the audience hanging on that point? What is it about that that leaving a mystery that you guys decided that was a stronger story, dramatic choice than then giving people the answer?
Doug Simon
I think that to come up with the one reason why… It’s just, I feel like, I think I felt like, it’s never going to be able to satisfy everything. I’m not sure if this makes sense. But I kind of took a cue from Clark McCarthy’s Road, at least his book, I think in the book, he doesn’t really mention why the world is the way it is. And their suggestion that maybe it was a nuclear holocaust, I think. But they don’t really get into the why. all that matters is your with in the book, The Road, all that matters is you are with this father and son on this journey, and trying to survive. And that’s what I kind of did for Breathe, or hope to do for Breathe was like, let’s just say this happened. And it was some environmental disaster. The suggestion it was something to do with climate change, probably. But what’s really important is that we’re now with this family, and they’re just trying to survive. So hopefully, you know, you’re not thinking about it too much. And you’re just with this family, and their journey and the relationship between Maya and Zora.
Ashley
Gotcha. So again, this is a very screenwriter requestion, at one point, they referenced the John Coltrane song, and you always hear just screenwriting one on one is, don’t put in specific song title into a script unless, you know, it’s really, really important. Maybe you can speak to that. But just in general, what’s your attitude towards that? And where did the John Coltrane song come from? Was that in an early draft? Or was that in something later?
Doug Simon
Yeah, I feel like it’s said to be screenwriting one to one, but which may be true. But once you get a director who wants John Coltrane to be in the movie, you write it into the script. And particularly what’s a really good idea. So that was Stefan, Stefan, during the rewrite process. I think I mentioned this that when Stefan came on, he had a lot of notes and lots of things he wanted to add to the script. And that was one of them. He goes, I want this to be the music that they listened to a dinner and then this to be the sign that comes back later that Zora is listening to when her mother is away.
Ashley
So, this film is it’s science fiction. But it also did feel fairly contained. There’s essentially maybe four or five main characters, obviously, it’s a post-apocalyptic hellscape. So there’s a lot of production value in that, but it’s still a fairly limited number of locations. The bunker outside the bunker, some streets, a couple of stores. Maybe you can speak to that. How much did that play into when you were coming up with the idea sort of knowing okay, we’re going to do science fiction, but we also don’t have $100 million budget. Maybe you can speak to that a little bit. Just how you thought about this. And was that part of your approach?
Doug Simon
I think the,, I’m not sure if this answers the question, but we always had a few shots at the opening. I guess wide shots to show the destruction the dead gestation of the world and but we knew that that street or the block that they lived on was going to be really the your… what you’re going to get most out of this world, that’s what you’re going to be living in. So, I think there was just a lot of deteriorating buildings that were written into the script. Boarded up windows, you know, just the sense of this town has been, or this block has been abandoned, and no one lives there.
Ashley
It doesn’t sound like it was a big piece of it. It sounds like you had an idea that you were invested in, and you just started writing that idea. And it just happened to be sort of a contained sci-fi idea.
Doug Simon
Yeah, it was always, I’m not sure. It was always a pretty contained movie. Yeah. And always knew you’re going to be living on the block. And like you said, we knew we weren’t going to have hundreds of millions of dollars to do anything crazy.
Ashley
So, how do you keep something simple moving forward? I mean, it seemed to me you sort of had this in three acts. There’s Mila Jovovich and her band are trying to get in, and then it reverses. And nobody can get in there locked in, and then eventually, the bad guys get in. But maybe you can give us some advice, you’ve got sort of a contained premise. How do you keep the story moving forward? How do you keep the tension on?
Doug Simon
Just a character always having a goal. And having that goal, forwarded in some way, the character needs to find another way to get the thing. I know, that’s like, super, super simple. But that’s kind of what I did. And what I do in a lot of what I write, which is, a character has a goal, the character has a want, whether it be the one of the entire movie to survive, or the want of I need to stop this drill from getting into the door. And you know, your main character, not necessarily main character, but then her character wanting to stop that drill, and how do we do this? And sometimes they succeed, and sometimes they don’t. And after that, you just kind of hopefully think, okay, organically, what would the people outside do next? Once the drill doesn’t work? Well, maybe they go and mess with the air filtration system. So that’s kind of what I do is just try to hopefully follow, like, organically, where these characters go and just create good obstacles for…
Ashley
And it felt very much, I mean, there really were no lows. I mean, a lot of these contain movies, you get these sort of lows where it goes a long time, but you kind of kept the tension and the pace up. That was never really a slow moment, once Milla Jovovich is trying to get into this thing. It’s pretty much tension till the end of the movie with that. Can you speak a little bit, I’ve had a number or I’ve seen a number of COVID films come out, you mentioned that you wrote this in 2019, obviously, pre COVID. But there’s been a number of COVID films. And this sort of has a similar feel this sort of idea of isolation and staying in your house and that sort of stuff. Did you get any of that pushback as you this film went out? You’re on the blacklist, I guess that was before COVID. Still, but as this thing was running through production, did you feel the weight of that at some of these other COVID movies? Was it a good thing? Was it a bad thing? Did it help the film? Did it hurt the film?
Doug Simon
I don’t know is the answer, whether it helped or hurt or I mean, it ended up getting made, which is a good thing. But I will say actually, when COVID hit because I think I went out with the script in September of 2019 or October. And how many months later, we were in lockdown. And there was this concern of I don’t know if the contained thriller about some sort of disaster in the world is going to be something that anyone’s going to be interested in being in direct what you know. So, there was that fear. But, you know, eventually time passes and you know, people start to raise their hand saying they want to be involved.
Ashley
Okay, interesting. Interesting. So the other thing I thought you did, there was a number of setups and payoffs. And maybe you can speak to that as well. I certainly think the mystery surrounding the father that was ultimately, you know, really paid off in an interesting way. Maybe you can just talk through that process. How do You have that like, where does that come from? At what moment as you’re writing this or outlining this script? At what moment do you sort of sink into and realize, oh, I can have a payoff with this. But maybe you can just speak to that using that as a specific example? How did that get layered into the story? And at what point do you realize, hey, this is a real opportunity for a big pay-off?
Doug Simon
I wish I could remember exactly how that one came up. I’m not sure if that was something that I thought of the second I knew that the Father was going to leave, or if I knew that down the line, but generally, with setups and payoffs, I feel like they come in all different ways. Sometimes, like I said, they come, like, right there, as you’re writing something for the first time, you know, dad leaves, I go, okay, you know, I know what’s going to happen. Or sometimes you get through the script, or you keep writing and you realize, oh, it’d be great if what I wrote on page 10, or page 25 was now being paid off in this moment that I just came up with on page 45, or whatever, you know, and it just reveals itself in the moment. And when those payoffs reveal themselves, sometimes that means the script goes in a different direction. And you go that way, if that makes sense. And so, I’m rambling here, but it’s all different ways. I mean, I feel like setups and payoffs and reveals and twists and turns. That’s what writing is, you know, hanging on to these characters. Really, what’s the worst thing that can happen to them at a given moment, and sometimes you don’t realize what that worst thing is, until you’re writing the script, you may outline it, you may do no cards, if you do no cards, whatever it is that you do, but sometimes, you get to a point in the script, and there’s this great payoff or this great turn that you think of, and that you just weren’t anticipating, and you kind of go with it. And then just I know, I’m repeating myself, but then sometimes things go along as planned. And you know, you’re not going to have those setups and payoffs as you go. Because, you know, that’s what was going to happen the whole time.
Ashley
Yeah, for sure. Let’s talk a little bit about just the mechanics of your writing process. What is your writing process look like? Do you have a home office, looks like you have a home office that speeds you, do you go to Starbucks, you need the ambient noise? Just what is your actual writing process look like on a daily basis?
Doug Simon
Yeah, well, I work here in this home office. And, you know, try to be at my desk, at sometime reasonable, like, anywhere between 9:30 and 10:30. And then put in a hopefully a full day’s work, or I should say, a day’s work until my kids come home from school. So, I have about till 4:30 to get work done. Because around 4:30, it gets a little hectic around here. And people need dinner, people need hugs after a rough day of school sometimes.
Ashley
And I have two daughters myself, so I’m right there with you.
Doug Simon
It’s a circus. And then, but then there are times, certainly where, you know, some days there’s a little less, but some days, there’s a little more or a lot more, you’re up against filling up assignments, or up against the deadline. Those can be late nights, early mornings and late nights.
Ashley
How much time do you spend outlining versus how much time are you in Final Draft actually cranking out screenplay pages?
Doug Simon
I spent too much time outlining.
Ashley
Oh, that’s interesting to say that.
Doug Simon
I go down a lot of rabbit holes. And what ends up happening typically is, and this happens on pretty much every script, I write. Well, I shouldn’t say every, but it happens often. I’ll outline, I’ll write my outline. And in the process of writing that script, I’ll write it to the end. Even if I kind of know, it’s not quite clicking, I got to get through it. I got to get through it. And then I get depressed. And then I go, okay, something’s off here. And then I typically go back and re outline something and re outline it. Because through writing the script, all of its faults are revealed to me. And I go, okay, well, I don’t I have so many new things I need to do. I kind of need to reoutline it before going back into it. So, I’ll reoutline it, and then kind of do a second script, a completely different version, or not completely different version. But from that new outline, and I kind of think that original outline and that original script for getting me to where I was, to where I got, which was this new idea. But then sometimes, like, I’ll write an outline and vomit out a vomit draft, and go in and do a more typical, okay, rewrite with that existing script. But yeah, like, I’ve two or three times, I’ve written scripts that I was certain the outline was perfect. And in the back of my head, I always know it’s not perfect, but I’ll write that script. And that script will just not be clicking. And I’ll just have to go back to page one and do something brand new. But again, I don’t repeat myself. But in writing that script, something happens in my brain or something happens, where you just see what it should have been the whole time.
Ashley
What does your development process look like? It sounds like for Breathe, this was a spec script and ultimately ended up on the blacklist. So, you had the idea, you wrote the script, then it sounds like you do have some other director, producer friends. Do you give it to them? Do you give it to your agent, you give it to your manager, get notes from them? So maybe you can speak to that a little bit? What does that development process look like? And how do you take those notes from people that maybe they’re not necessarily paying you to make these changes? So, there’s always a little bit of I mean, and we can compare that, once you’re being paid to make changes takes on maybe a different flavor. But maybe you can speak to that, as you’re writing a spec script getting those What is your development process look like?
Doug Simon
Well, I’ll write the script. And after all, I said about outlining and writing, once I have the script that I’m happy with, I’ll give it to a few close friends. A friend of mine who’s an editor, friend of mine who’s a composer, and other friend of mine who’s a director, and I get their feedback. And I’ll go in and do whatever notes that work or I agree with, and then maybe I’ll give it to like one or two more people, close friends. And the second round that I go to are, the people that I know are going to be tough, like, like the first three, I need a little bit of like, I’m still working some of this out. But then the next two, they know their job is to really like knock me out if they can, and I’ll get their notes. And typically, after that, it’s in good enough shape where I go, okay, it’s time to get my managers or agents, thoughts on it, I’ll give it to them. And if they have notes, same thing, do the ones that I think work. But typically, everyone has really, really great notes, you know, and great thoughts and are very helpful in shaping the script. And then once everyone’s happy; managers, myself agents, then you send it out to the town and hope for the best.
Ashley
And then just reverse that as like a writing assignment or something like that, where you’re getting notes for some someone that’s paying you to write something, just talk about the difference, is there any difference in how you approach it? Obviously, you could potentially get some notes that you don’t agree with, but if they’re paying you there’s a little bit of a different dynamic, maybe you can speak to that a little bit.
Doug Simon
Yeah, it is definitely different. But I think if you work with, I really think I’ve been fortunate enough to work with producers and directors, who I enjoy working with and I think are really good. And if you have disagreements with the producer or director or whoever, you know, it’s usually a good conversation. And I don’t know if I’ve gotten into like, big disagreements where I can’t believe they’re making me do this. Usually, I think a good conversation goes a long way. And everyone, if you’re really trying to make it the best it can be everyone’s heart is in the right place. You know, usually come out with something that everyone is satisfied with. But yeah, I mean, to your point, like if someone has a note that, you know, you’re being paid to write something, yeah, you have to address it somehow. You can’t just not addressed the note. But again, like sometimes addressing the note of conversation between the producer and sometimes you’re not getting it initially. And after the conversation go, okay. I totally get it. 100%, right. Yes, I see what you mean, this needs addressing. But it also goes the other way too. Sometimes, if you’re again, worked with people that are respectful and value your opinion, you know, and there’s no egos involved, then they’ll say, okay, yeah, actually, you know what, maybe you’re right, maybe we don’t need to touch this one. So, that’s how it could work.
Ashley
Okay, so once you had a draft of the script that you felt was solid, you got on the blacklist, your agent, managers are sending it out. Maybe you can just speak to that a little bit. What was that path from finishing your script, sending it out, and then actually getting it produced where there’s some false starts where you guys optioned it to some producers, but that fell through, you got some town attached, but that just give us sort of the ups and the downs of taking this thing from all the way through the green light?
Doug Simon
Well, this actually didn’t have that many ups and downs, went out with it. And I said September October of 2019. And I think it was the summer of 2020. Stefan came aboard. Or maybe will sometime or maybe it was early 2020. I’m messing up the timeframes, underwrote options in 2019. Stefan came aboard sometime early to mid-2020 if my memory is correct, to rewrite first step on Thunder Road was happy with it went out to actors and finding actors, that’s always seems to be the toughest thing. And eventually, Jennifer committed to doing it and Milla and Sam and Common and Quvenzhané. And I wish I could tell you exactly how long that took, probably a year maybe the put the cast together, but don’t…
Ashley
Yeah, it sounds like it went pretty quickly, though. All things considering Hollywood and how some of these things can take, you know, decades if not longer. So just general question, what advice do you have, in the year 2024 as we sit here and April 2024, what advice do you have for people that want to break in as screenwriters? What should they be doing? What are the types of things they should be working on? What should they be doing to get their material out there?
Doug Simon
What should they be doing? I don’t know. I mean, someone should have told me what I should be doing. You know, I’ll say this. I don’t know if people should be doing this. But I’ve been telling myself more recently, I need to read more books, fiction, nonfiction, because I was thinking back, just the other day, I was thinking, how much I used to read. And maybe I don’t read as much because of life changes having three kids. But you know, 15-years-ago, I was just soaking in, or soaking up so much material, books, reading screenplays, going to the movies. And I was thinking back, I was like, that’s when I was, you know, just full of a lot of creativity. And when you read stuff for consuming stuff, it you know something about it, it fuels you to want to be creative. And so that’s something that I kind of want to do more of like, you know, I used to be able to just pick a book and read but now it’s like, no, I need to carve out time to see a movie to read a book, you know? Yeah. That’s something that I would do, I’d say keep reading, keep going to the movies, keep reading scripts. I mean, I read tons and tons and tons of scripts. Good and bad. It because you really learn a lot from that. And I still haven’t said this yet, but clearly keep writing. I mean, I’m sure every person you’ve had on your show has said write, write, write. That’s the thing, you know, because you can do all the things I just mentioned, which is read, go to the movies, whatever. But if you’re not writing, then…
Ashley
… you’re not a writer. If you’re not writing you’re not a writer. So, that’s the bottom line.
Doug Simon
Yeah, and it’s scary. You know, sometimes like, you know, people have an idea for a movie and they go, but I don’t know how to write. Yeah, and you go, well, you probably don’t know exactly what you’re doing at first, but like, that’s okay. Like, it can be figured out just dive in, dive in.
Ashley
Sound advice for sure. So, I just like to wrap up these interviews by asking the guests, is there anything you’ve been watching that you can recommend to our mostly screenwriting audience, Netflix, HBO, Hulu, anything that’s out there that you’ve been watching, and you think is real good?
Doug Simon
I haven’t finished it yet. But I’ve started to watch the new season of Curb Your Enthusiasm, which is interesting, for screenwriting audience. Because from what I understand, it doesn’t seem like a lot of dialogue is written. It’s a lot of, you know, here’s an idea for a scene and go for it or improv, I should say when I say go for it, but talk about setups and payoffs. Like, I don’t know if anyone doesn’t like Larry David.
Ashley
Yeah, he’s a master of that. All of his stuff. Yeah, he’s an absolute master at that. That’s a good recommendation. I need to catch up on that as well. So just one more time, how can people see Breathe? You said it was coming out at the end of April.
Doug Simon
It’s coming on theaters April 26th. And on VOD at the same time.
Ashley
And what’s the best way for people to keep up with what you’re doing? Anything, you’re comfortable sharing Twitter, Facebook, a blog, we’ll round up and put in the show notes.
Doug Simon
I have virtually no social media footprint.
Ashley
Well, we’ll put your IMDB link in there. So yeah, people can go to that and just follow along. So, Doug, I really appreciate you coming on and talking with me today. Excellent interview. I wish you all the luck with this film and all your future films as well.
Doug Simon
Thank you. I appreciate it.
Ashley
Thank you.
Doug Simon
We’ll talk to you later. Thanks.
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So, on the next episode of the podcast, I’m not sure who I’m going to be interviewing. It will be published June 3rd, but I will be doing that interview here in May. And then I’ll have that ready as I said by the first Monday of June, which will be June 3rd. If you enjoyed this episode and the deep dive into the actual screenplay and film. Please do let me to know. I’m easy to get a hold of just send me an email info@sellingyourscreenplay.com the feedback I get really does help me shape the direction of the podcast. It’s quite a bit of work to watch the film, dissect it and then come up with a number of interesting questions to ask the writer so there’s nothing anybody really wants to hear. I can definitely experiment with some other formats. But I definitely think this could be an interesting way to kind of delve into some of these films and get some additional insight, not just how they sold it but to get some additional insight into, you know, their thinking when they are writing these films. Hopefully some of these films you guys are actually able to go out and watch. And as I said, if you can watch it and then really hear what some of the issues were that the writer had, I think it could be an interesting interview and an educational experience for anyone that’s interested in Screenwriting. Anyway, keep an eye out for that episode and next month. That’s the show. Thank you for listening.