This is a transcript of SYS Podcast Episode 406 – From Car Salesman to Filmmaker .
Ashley: Welcome to Episode #406 of the Selling Your Screenplay podcast. I’m Ashley Scott Meyers, screenwriter and blogger over at www.sellingyourscreenplay.com. Today I am interviewing writer, director and producer, Randy Van Dyke who wrote and directed a new horror film called Like Dogs. It’s about a social experiment about a group of people who are literally treated like dogs and how they react. He’s done a number of short films, and really that really helped him work his way up to this feature. We go into the, some real detail about how he got this new film produced, as well as how he got some of his shorts produced and how they led him to this feature film. So stay tuned for that interview.
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It’s completely free, you just put in your email address and I’ll send you a new lesson once per week for five weeks, along with a bunch of bonus lessons. I teach the whole process of how to sell your screenplay in that guide. I’ll teach you how to write a professional logline and query letter and how to find agents, managers, and producers who are looking for material. Really it’s everything you need to know to sell your screenplay. Just go to www.sellingyourscreenplay.com/guide if that sounds like something, and you might be interested in checking out.
So quick few words about what I’ve been working on. We’re still plugging away with The Rideshare Killer, just getting it through the final stages here as we get it ready for distribution. We’re gonna do a small shoot on Monday for our poster, just a still shoot with a still photographer, that should be fun. I’ve actually never done a photoshoot with a still photographer before. Then hopefully we’ll have a nice poster from these stills. We’ll have some really high resolution pictures with the actual actors and stuff. So hopefully our designer can put together a really great poster that we can share with everyone in a couple of weeks. We’re still working on all the other deliverables, but it’s definitely wrapping up and we’re hoping to release the film early next year.
So I’m really getting excited finally to be able to share this with the world. It’s definitely a sort of a culmination of a lot of work, not just me, all the people involved in the production. So we’re excited to get it out there. I’ve also been studying up a little bit on cryptocurrency and NFTs. NFTs are sort of a side branch of cryptocurrency. I think there’s some real potential here for independent artists, which includes indie filmmakers. So I’m gonna be looking into this over the next few weeks and probably months. If you have any experience with crypto and NFTs, please just reach out to me, info@sellingyourscreenplay.com. I’m always curious to hear from people who know a lot more about things than myself.
So it’d be fascinating just to hear some other screenwriters and sort of what their experiences and the knowledge is on the subject. I know there’s some really interesting film projects out there that are starting to get into the crypto space, financing the films with cryptocurrency, or minting these NFTs to try and build some revenue stream. So I’m gonna try and track down some of these folks and see if I might, if they might be willing to come on the podcast and just talk and kind of explain some of this to myself and everybody here listening. It’s definitely an exciting new frontier, and as I said, as I’ve gotten into it more, I feel pretty strongly that this is sort of a real good future thing for independent artists.
A lot of what crypto does and a lot of what NFTs do, is they cut out the middlemen in a lot of ways, and the actual people who are interested in the artist can connect with that artist and interact with that artist’s work. And as I said, you’re just really cutting out all of the middlemen, which is a good thing because then the artist actually gets to keep more of that money instead of paying for these level of bureaucracies, like a record company and record executives and agents and managers and all these things. If you build a following and you mint some of these NFTs, you’re actually, you’re interacting directly with your audience and potentially again, another revenue source. But it’s also a way for people to invest in you as an artist and kind of like buying a stock.
If they think, if you think an artist is producing really good work, you can buy one of these NFTs. And if the artist continues to go, move along in his career, inevitably these NFTs will also rise in value. So the actual fans can take advantage, if they see an artist that they really like early on, they can actually see potential in that and they can invest in that and they can actually reap some of those rewards as well as these NFTs become more valuable. Anyways, as I said, it’s pretty complicated and I don’t think there’s, I think there’s still like a sort of a need for a lot of tools, so that sort of the average person can kind of get involved with this. But I do think it’s the future, and as I said, I think I’m gonna try and track down some people.
So again, if you have any experience with crypto and NFTs, definitely reach out, because I’d be curious to hear from you. Anyway, those are the main things that I’ve been working on over the last couple of weeks, now let’s get into the main segment. Today I am interviewing writer, director, producer, Randy Van Dyke. Here is the interview.
Ashley: Welcome Randy, to the Selling Your Screenplay podcast. I really appreciate you coming on the show with me today.
Randy: Well, I really appreciate you having me. Thank you.
Ashley: Sure, sure, sure thing. So to start out, maybe you can tell us a little bit about your background. Where did you grow up and how did you get in the entertainment business?
Randy: So I grew up in Southern California, the, pretty much the snake pit of the entertainment industry. You know, you grow up and you always know there’s these friends and family members and people that are involved in the business and you hear stories and that kind of thing. But unfortunately nepotism never really worked in my favor. Although my last name is Van Dyke, unfortunately I am not related directly to any of the big Van Dykes, like Dick or Jerry, any of those guys. So I kind of had to go earn it on my own, but that was okay though. That was kind of half the fun of it. I decided to do the traditional film school route.
Ashley: Okay, and where did you go to film school?
Randy: So being the, not from an affluent family if anything, I ended up going to a community college. The one that I selected was Orange Coast College at the time because they were one of the film, one of the few schools in the late ‘90s, early 2000s that was still shooting in film. And I really wanted to get my hands dirty and shoot on film. So that was kind of it, and then I ended up transferring to California State University, Fullerton. And then ironically, I ended up not graduating from Fullerton because of the fact that my very last semester there, I had the opportunity to shoot and direct my very first feature film. So I actually ended up dropping out of school my very last semester and instead making a film, which to me is kind of a, like doing it for real was kind of a better education than actually going to school for it.
Ashley: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. So talk about that. Take us a step, a couple steps back. Now, how did you, what was that first film about? And just briefly, because we do wanna talk about Like Dogs, but just how did you get that film going? I mean, obviously you’re young, you’re first time director, you haven’t done a feature film. How did you get that film off the ground and into production?
Randy: It was a comedy. That first feature was called Pink Lemonade. It was interesting because my buddy that co-wrote and co-directed the movie with me, we both worked as, as silly as it sounds, as used car salesmen at the time. And you would think that and comedy goes hand in hand, but it’s not really nearly as fun or funny as you think it is, as it sounds anyway, right?
Ashley: Yeah.
Randy: But the great thing about the car business, and this was the, this was around 2005 before the big economic crash in 2009. The cool thing about the car industry was our bosses had tons of money. So what we ended up doing, we went to a Christmas party and everybody was drinking, everybody was having a good time and we were talking about how great the script was that we had written, and oh boy, we just need a little bit of money to produce it because we’re gonna, we wanted to make it ourselves. It was that drunken Christmas party that ended up getting the majority of that first film funded. And that was what kind of got us off to the races to direct this thing and produce it ourselves.
Ashley: That’s a fantastic story and I hope people really listen to that. Sometimes it’s just a matter of just making things happen for yourself, and it’s kind of just, it sounds like it was just kind of a shot in the dark. You were just pitching this thing to these guys, they liked you as salesman and for whatever reason they decided to go for it.
Randy: Absolutely. Yeah. That was it. I mean, we were both fresh out of film school, not even having completed film school. We were still in college at the time and we were just going for it. We were swinging for the fences.
Ashley: Got you. Got you. So let’s dig into your latest feature film which is called Like Dogs. Maybe to start out you can give us a quick pitch or a logline. What is this film all about?
Randy: So this film’s about two university students that are unwilling participants in a psychological experiment that goes horribly, horribly wry, and then people end up dying, and then it’s just all about trying to escape and survive.
Ashley: Got you. Got you. Now it’s interesting, as I was preparing for this interview, I’ve been watching Squid Game and there’s some parallels there, this sort of shadowy entity that’s putting these people through. Obviously your film was made long before Squid Game was a success. But is there something that you tapped into, just the collective conscious of this sort of feeling that a lot of people are having, that there is this sort of shadowy government or shadowy school or shadowy company or Facebook or any of these things. What do you think you tapped into and were you looking at sort of a bigger context when you started to come up with this?
Randy: Well, I think the bigger context is the fact that all these shadowy, faceless people, they’re faceless for a reason and they’re faceless so that we can’t relate to them. Because that’s the first, the first thing we do when you meet another person, you look at their face, you look at their eyes and you look for a way to kind of relate to them. And from one human to another, looking in somebody’s eyes, that’s kind of how you do it. So if you’re looking at somebody and you can’t see anything, it doesn’t give you any kind of, it doesn’t allow you to relax. You can’t feel comfortable around people like that, and that’s something that’s very similar between Squid Game and Like Dogs.
In our case, because our people that you don’t see, completely covered head toe, they’re the ones being treated like dogs and they’re being broken and conditioned and trained and see how they’re, see if they respond the same way that a dog would kind of thing. And the people that are doing it to them, you never see their face because they want to basically keep their humanity like behind, in the shadows. They don’t want to give these dogs, these test subjects, they don’t want them give them anything that they can relate to. So, and I think it’s very much similar in Squid Game.
Ashley: Yeah. And so, and that’s a fascinating point and I totally agree. But just what was the genesis of this? As you guys were coming up with ideas, or you were coming up with an idea to produce or to write a script, where did this come from? Were you seeing some other things? Were you feeling this, were you talking to some friends about these things? Like just what is sort of that genesis of the story?
Randy: So there’s two big things. One, I was deeply inspired by the Stanford Prison Experiment. And for those of you who may not be familiar with it, back in 1971, Stanford University ran an experiment where they recruited a bunch of students to role play as either guards or prisoners in a mock prison environment. The experiment was supposed to last for two weeks, but it only ended up going for something like six days because the people that were playing guards started getting this power trip and they started actually physically beating the inmates. And the inmates started just kind of mentally breaking down in addition to getting physically beaten as well. And the experiment just went completely off the rails.
And I was fascinated by how something like that could happen. In the back of my mind, I thought, well, it’d be really kind of fun or interesting to do it, but like instead of have a scenario where both sides are human, one would very clearly be the humans and the other one would be the animals. Like what happens if you treat a human like an animal? At what point will they deviate from what an actual animal would do, and at what point will they break? That kind of thing. That was the first inspiration. But the second inspiration was actually the location. So I was there location scouting for a different film that we were working on at the time, and we found this abandoned animal shelter.
And we were actually going to be using it as a hospital for this other film, but we came across this kennel room and there was no electricity to that whole ring of the building. It was a dusk, the only light coming in was this little bit of kind of like grayish twilight coming in through the skylights overhead. And all I saw was just a huge room filled with concrete cubicles, basically the dog channels that you see for the first act of the movie. I walked in, I looked over to my buddy and I was like, “I wanna make a movie where I chain up humans in this room.” And I said pretty much those exact words, and that was kind of the genesis. That was the very beginning of the script for Like Dogs.
Ashley: Huh. Well, that’s fascinating. So let’s talk about your writing process a little bit. Where do you typically write and when do you typically write? Do you have a home office? Do you go to Starbucks and need that ambient noise? Do you write in the, first thing in the morning, do you write in the middle of the night? What does your sort of writing schedule look like?
Randy: I am a night owl. I get way more done between the hours of 10:00 PM and 3:00 AM than I probably do at any other point in time throughout the day. But I have a home office that I love to retreat into. It is decked out with all my favorite [inaudible 00:14:36]. I’m a huge Star Wars nerd, and I have like a life size [inaudible 00:14:41] the book, the costume on a mannequin and tons of old toys from the ‘80s and that kind of thing just adorning the walls. And it’s also just kind of a nice place to sit and write and just listen… My music of choice while I’m writing is usually soundtracks. Movie soundtracks. I was the weird kid growing up that wasn’t into popular music. I was listening to soundtracks and I always have all my life. So it’s always been very inspiring to me and that’s really how I prefer to write.
Ashley: Got you. Got you. How much time do you spend outlining, doing index cards, versus how much time do you spend in final draft writing actual script pages?
Randy: So I’m a big, big believer in outlining, so I outline everything. My outlines usually end up becoming very bloated by the end of it, to where they’re practically treatments themselves. And by the time I go through and I start adding in some dialogue there, the script is almost written by the time I actually start working on it in final draft, just because the outlines are usually so detailed by the time I get to the point where it’s like, okay, now’s the time to go.
Ashley: Got you. Got you. And using Like Dogs as an example, like how long, how many just weeks or months did you spend in the outline, and then how long did you actually spend writing, in final draft writing out script pages?
Randy: So this one was actually kind of difficult because I come from a background of comedy. The previous features that I’ve done were comedy, and this was really kind of my first foray into exploring the darker side of things. So this time it took me a little bit longer to really get through that outline because I was still trying to think, get things out as I was going. So I would say it took me about a solid year of outlining, going away from it, coming back to it, going away from it again and coming back to it. And then I was able to bang out a first draft in about a month. And then it went through some weeks after that of course. But yeah, just like the compiling of the story and just figuring out the right way to do it, the right time to pull the rug out from under the audience, that kind of thing, because I really wanted to make it as unpredictable as possible. So I tried to write in as many twists and turns as I could, without it getting, hopefully without it getting tiresome.
Ashley: Got you. What does your development process look like? Do you have an agent, a manager? Do you have other writer friends or other director friends that you send it to? Maybe you can talk about that a little bit. After this develop, or after writing that first draft, how do you know it’s ready to start showing to some of these people and who are these people that you typically show your early drafts to?
Randy: I have had a manager for a while, but at the moment I do not. Generally, I send it to other writers, other people that I’ve written with. I also happen to work at a college and I work in a film department. So I kind of bounce things off of other faculty here as well, because everybody works in the business and everybody’s got scripts they’re sitting on and everybody’s got ideas. So I love just kind of making a writer’s room out of the, just kind of sitting there and spit balling ideas for a few hours. If I get stuck on something, I’ll just pick one of their brains, “Hey, this is the scenario I’m working with.” And they’ll usually give me some ideas that I didn’t think about. And it’s really great because I love surrounding myself with creative people, and there’s definitely no shortage of them around here where I am.
So it’s been a, it’s been pretty fantastic as far as that goes. But in terms of keeping things realistic, especially if it’s something that I’m intending to shoot and direct myself, the producers that I’m working with, I’ll send it to them, I’ll say, “Hey, do you think this is possible? Do you think we could find a location for this? Do think we can get the money for this?” That kind of thing. Cindy Rice was one of my producers that I worked with on Like Dogs. She comes into it with a real strong background in distribution, and I knew that that was gonna really come in handy. So a lot of the things in pre-production and even in the writing phase was, all right, what is going to work to get us into certain markets? What’s going to work do you think, to make this appeal to the most, to the biggest audience?
We don’t want necessarily just go for the horror junkies, because at its heart, this is a psychological thriller and people going into it expecting a horror movie might be a little bit disappointed because there’s not a lot of blood or gore jump scares or anything like that, so…
Ashley: And I wonder if you could, and that’s… I’m sorry. I’m sorry to cut you off. And that’s fascinating what you’re saying there. I wonder if you can relay some of the specific points that Cindy made to you regarding this project. Are there some things you can relay on to our writers if they’re in sort of a similar boat, they’ve got this project that maybe’s leaning a little bit towards horror or thriller? What were some of these things that Cindy wanted you to lean into, to give it a better shot at a wider audience?
Randy: Well, I think one of the biggest things that she had mentioned, was kind of keeping it grounded in reality, because there were some sequences that I wanted to put in there that were kind of hallucination dreams. And they were kind of lacked out really far out there and it was gonna be my opportunity to kind of get some more gore and kind of like almost a monster element into the movie. Because I… and at its conception, I really wanted to kind of appeal to the biggest horror audience that I could, but she was the one that really helped me kind of reel it in and make it more the psychological thriller that it became. Because that was something that was not necessarily seen as much, but was really kind of high concept at the time to do something quite like that.
And we just thought that maybe that might be something that hasn’t been overdone to death and that people would be interested in because we don’t wanna fall into a lot of the same old tropes.
Ashley: Yeah. Yeah. Got you. Speaking of that, I’m curious, you mentioned the Stanford Prison Experiment, which I think has been made into a movie at least once, maybe twice, maybe three times. So I’m curious, how do you actually spin that? It’s always the Blake Snyder, you’ll give them the same, but different. How do you sort of, you go, you lean into some of the tropes, but you also, as you said, you want to do something totally original and not predictable. How do you accomplish that, the same but different, in a script like this?
Randy: This particular one, well, I mean with the Stanford Prison Experiment, nobody actually died. There may have been some minor injuries, but there were no fatalities and it wasn’t done with malicious intent. It was genuinely done as an experiment. And I mean, being that it was overseen and funded by the university [inaudible 00:21:08] that kind of thing. So in the case of this one, it’s more put together by a small group of people, all of whom have very different motives and ulterior motives for what their end game is. So this is kind of meant to be a little bit more of a manipulation, where the other one was more true science. This is definitely pseudoscience. It’s like this one you’re not meant to look into the science of it too much.
I mean if anything, maybe that’s the McGuffin, is the science of it, but really, it’s the people’s motivations that are running it. What do they have to gain and why did they want to do this experiment in the first place? That made it interesting. It made it different from Stanford Prison Experiment.
Ashley: Got you. Got you. So once you were done with the script, what were some of the next steps to actually getting this into production? You mentioned, you sound like Cindy Rice was one of your producers. But take us through that process. So you’ve got a finished script that you’re happy with, then what are those next steps that actually got it into production?
Randy: So the next steps were basically just sending it out, and she has a bunch of industry connections that she trusts very deeply. This is Cindy that we’re talking about. She sent it to a bunch of people, got a bunch of notes back. And basically once it got to the point where the majority of the notes that were coming back were positive, or like, hey I wouldn’t really change much if anything, that sort of thing, that’s when we decided it was time to go ahead and kind of greenlight it. Now, we were funding this ourselves. This wasn’t contingent on necessarily like having a gatekeeper to get the money to make the film. We just wanted to make it as commercial as possible to guarantee that it’ll sell and it won’t turn off an audience, that sort of thing.
So everybody that we showed it to, we did with the intent of just like, we’re not, just making sure we weren’t going too far with it and making sure that we’re making a product that is actually something that they’re going to want to, so somebody was actually gonna wanna see it and somebody was actually gonna wanna buy it. So and that was the big, big thing there. Yeah.
Ashley: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. I’m curious, I mean, I don’t think writers truly understand how important it is to talk to someone in distribution that understands that world. So I’m always curious, it sounds like you had a great partner with Cindy. How did you meet Cindy originally? How did you be get in her orbit and how did you guys connect? And ultimately, how did you bring her in to work on this project, or if you’ve worked with her before, how did you get her to work on some of those per projects?
Randy: So it’s interesting. I had worked with her before. I directed a few music videos for a band called Song Hammerer. They’re a cosplay rock band that’s world of Warcraft themed. I’m not sure exactly how she had hooked up with those guys, but I ended up getting hired on to direct and shoot a few of their music videos, and she really liked the way that I worked on set and she really liked the pre-production that I put into things. We kind of had decided that you know what, she’d already, at that point, she had known that I had already made a couple features and she’s like, “Hey, before you make your next feature, talk to me, let’s see if we can do this together.” So that was just kind of the way that we ended up going into this next project.
So as soon as I had a draft on the script ready, I said, “Hey, I’m gonna hold you to that.” And I sent it to her and I said, “How can we make this movie, and how can we make it something that people are actually gonna wanna see, something that’s gonna sell?”
Ashley: Yeah, yeah, yeah. That’s fantastic. I’d just like to wrap up the interviews by asking the guests, if there’s anything out there that they’ve seen recently that they thought was really great. Maybe something that went a little below the radar, HBO, Netflix, Hulu. Have you seen anything recently that you could recommend to screenwriters?
Randy: Well, we were just talking about Squid Game and I just started watching that just a couple days ago and that is amazing. I really love the levels of that. It’s interesting looking at it from a screenwriting standpoint, because I typically write features and I’m trying to shift my brain into the idea of writing a series, and I really like the way that is put together as a series. I love the amount of information that you get in each episode, and I think that is a really kind of a nice map to use as like, this is how much needs to be dispensed to the audience in each episode to really clearly tell a really fulfilling story. And I really like the way that’s put together right now.
Ashley: Yeah, yeah. I totally agree. I think that’s a great recommendation. How can people see Like Dogs? Do you know what the release schedule’s gonna be like?
Randy: Our official release is October 1st, so we are out currently. We’re gonna be adding more on streaming platforms all throughout the month of October and all throughout the rest of the year as well. But currently we are on Amazon Prime and if you’re a prime member, you can watch it for free, so that’s pretty cool. We’re on Apple TV, Google Play, Tubi, a few other platforms. We had our streaming premier on the Kings of Horror YouTube channel. And I know they’re gonna be keeping that up there for a little while, so you can actually watch it for free there too. And there was a cool filmmaker live chat going on.
So you get to see myself, some of the cast and the production designers and stuff like that popping in during the livestream chat. So if you watch it back then, you can see all that popping up in what was real time. So it’s kind of neat to see a little bit of insight behind the scenes into a movie by watching it that way. But yeah, I would definitely, definitely recommend to check it out.
Ashley: Perfect. Perfect. What’s the best way for people to keep up with what you’re doing? Twitter, Facebook, a blog, anything you’re comfortable sharing I will round up for the show notes.
Randy: Sure. Yeah. Twitter I’m @randyvandyke. Instagram @randy.van.dyke. Those are probably the easiest ways to just kind of keep an eye on what I’m up to. You can follow the movie Like Dogs, it’s @likedogsfilm. Because believe it or not, there’s a ton of things out there called Like Dogs, so we had to put film at the end of it, to differentiate ourselves. But yeah, like I said, comedy is my usual thing and my next project that I’m working on is kind of a fusion. It’s gonna be a horror, sci-fi, action comedy. Hopefully we’ll be able to talk about that in a couple years.
Ashley: I hope so. You’re welcome back. I look forward. Yeah, I look forward to seeing, I look forward to seeing that when ready. So well, thanks for coming on and talking with me today. This has been a really fascinating interview. I wish you all the luck with Like Dogs and of course your future films as well.
Randy: Thank you so much. It’s been a great talking to you.
Ashley: Thank you. We talk to you later. Bye.
Randy: All right, bye-bye.
Ashley: SYS’s From Concept to Completion Screenwriting Course is now available. Just go to www.sellingyourscreenplay.com/screenwritingcourse. It will take you through every part of writing a screenplay, coming up with a concept, outlining, writing the opening pages, the first act, second act, third act, and then rewriting. And then there’s even a module at the end on marketing your screenplay once it’s polished and ready to be sent out. We’re offering this course in two different versions. The first version you get the course, plus you get three analyses from an SYS reader. You’ll get one analysis on your outline and then you’ll get two analyses on your first draft of your screenplay. This is just our introductory price.
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I will of course link to the course in the show notes, and I will put a link to the course on the homepage up in the right hand side bar. On the next episode of the podcast, I’m gonna be interviewing writer, director Ryan Silva. He just completed his first feature film, Let Me Be Frank, which is available on Amazon Prime, if you wanna check it out before next week’s episode. He’s very candid and tells us really, exactly how he put this film together. And he did it all with very little resources and very little money. It’s a really great template for getting a low budget film done. I really hope it inspires a lot of people to go out and make their movie. So keep an eye out for that episode next week. That’s our show, thank you for listening.